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A discussion of the most important news and issues in international affairs through a uniquely Australian lens. Hosted by Darren Lim, in memory of Allan Gyngell.
Episodes
Friday Aug 02, 2019
Friday Aug 02, 2019
This episode we are pleased to present another interview with a senior Australian policymaker. Dr. David Gruen is Deputy Secretary, Economic at the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, and Australia’s G20 Sherpa. David is an economist and has previously worked at the Australian Treasury and the Reserve Bank of Australia. The discussion therefore revolves around the economic dimensions of Australia’s place in the world and international affairs generally.
Allan begins the interview with David’s high-profile role as Australia’s G20 Sherpa. What does the Sherpa actually do, and what is David’s assessment of the recent G20 Leaders’ Summit in Osaka? Darren wonders whether the G20’s loose structure represents the most likely model of international cooperation in the 21st century, even if it’s not always effective.
The discussion then pivots to the global economy, where David offers some reflections on what has surprised him over the years, before addressing the specific tensions between the US and China and the question of decoupling. Darren asks for David’s perspective on the domestic sources of hostility to the rules-based order, and the conversation finishes on the topic of “economics versus security” in Australian foreign policy. David offers some novel and interesting insights, and highlights the efforts of his department to integrate advice that is grounded in these different perspectives more effectively into the policymaking process.
As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj
Our thanks go to AIIA intern Charlie Henshall for his help with audio editing, Rory Stenning for composing our theme music, and Martyn Pearce for technical assistance in studio.
Relevant links
David Gruen, “The G20 at Ten: Past, Progess and Prospects”, Speech at the Lowy Institute, November 2018: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/publications/g20-ten-past-progress-and-prospects
G20 Osaka Leaders’ Statement on Preventing Exploitation of the Internet for Terrorism and Violent Extremism Conducive to Terrorism: https://g20.org/en/documents/final_g20_statement_on_preventing_terrorist_and_vect.html
Jonathan Kearns and Philip Lowe, “Australia's Prosperous 2000s: Housing and the Mining Boom”, Research Discussion Paper 2011-07, Reserve Bank of Australia, December 2011: https://www.rba.gov.au/publications/rdp/2011/2011-07.html
Philip Tetlock, “Expert political judgment”, Goodreads Overview: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/89158.Expert_Political_Judgment
David Gruen, “Collective animosities or cooperation?”, Speech at Symposium discussing ‘Asia’s Response to the Trade War’, Tokyo, December 2018: https://www.pmc.gov.au/news-centre/pmc/keynote-speech-dr-david-gruen-collective-animosities-or-cooperation
Ben Bernanke, “When growth is not enough”, Speech at the European Central Bank Forum, June 2017: https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/es_20170626_whengrowthisnotenough.pdf
Mark Davis, “Outside the bubble”, Sydney Morning Herald, 19 September 2009: https://www.smh.com.au/business/outside-the-bubble-20090918-fvgm.html
Wednesday Jul 24, 2019
Wednesday Jul 24, 2019
This episode we present an exclusive interview with Paul Symon AO, Director-General of the Australian Secret Intelligence Service, ASIS. As Australia’s “top spook”, Paul is the only member of his organisation who can legally be identified. Indeed, the existence of ASIS was not publicly acknowledged until 1977 and not brought under formal legislation until 2001.
This is a great privilege for us because this is the first time Paul has ever given a public interview.
Bearing in mind “the inevitable paradox inherent in publicising the achievements of an organisation whose activities are, by design, secret”, Allan commences the interview by asking Paul to describe what ASIS does (in a general sense), why Australia needs it, and to describe some of its achievements. Paul then speaks to the vital question of how the Australian public can be confident that ASIS is acting in ways consistent with our law and values given it operates in secret. Other questions include how ASIS decides what information to collect, how it manages technology in the 21st century, how it conducts risk assessments, and its work with both the Australian Defence Force (ADF) and the Five Eyes Partnership. Darren asks a personal question about the intersection of publicly available information and secret information in the context of public policy debates. The discussion finishes on the topic of recruitment – how can Australians come to work for ASIS and what kind of people are sought?
Paul’s answers are fascinating and really offer remarkable insight into a unique (and normally very secretive) organisation.
As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj
Our thanks go to AIIA intern Charlie Henshall for his help with audio editing, Rory Stenning for composing our theme music, and Martyn Pearce for technical assistance in studio.
Relevant links
Paul Symon’s biography: https://www.asis.gov.au/About-Us/Message-from-DG.html
ASIS homepage: https://www.asis.gov.au/
“The most interesting job in the world”: http://www.morehumanintelligence.com.au/
Monday Jul 08, 2019
Monday Jul 08, 2019
On this week’s episode, Allan and Darren kick things off with an in-depth discussion of Australian Prime Minister’s Scott Morrison's recent foreign policy speech, delivered a few days before his attendance at the G20 Leaders’ Summit in Osaka. Darren asks Allan to situate the speech in Morrison’s trajectory as Prime Minister, and to describe how speeches like this are prepared. The substance itself was especially fascinating, including China’s apparent new status as a “great and powerful friend”, Morrison’s argument that the post-war order has been an important protector of state sovereignty, and his claim that Australia retains agency to shape international affairs.
The second item on the agenda is the results from the latest Lowy Institute poll of the Australian public’s attitudes towards foreign policy and international affairs. As the founding Executive Director of the Lowy Institute under whose leadership the poll was first developed, Allan outlines why he saw such a poll as being necessary and what we have learned from it over time. The latest results include generally positive sentiments towards the United States (excepting Donald Trump), but increasing scepticism towards China. Finally, the two finish with the seemingly gloomy outcomes of the G20 Leaders’ Summit, although Darren attempts to use game theory to try retain a glimmer of optimism.
As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj
Our thanks go to AIIA intern Charlie Henshall for his help with audio editing, Rory Stenning for composing our theme music, and Martyn Pearce for in-studio technical support this week.
Relevant links
Scott Morrison, “Where we live”, Asialink-Bloomberg Address: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/where-we-live-asialink-bloomberg-address
Lowy Institute Poll 2019: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/publications/lowy-institute-poll-2019
Shiro Armstrong, “The rules-based economic disorder after Osaka G20”, East Asia Forum: https://www.eastasiaforum.org/2019/06/30/the-rules-based-economic-disorder-after-osaka-g20/
Merriden Varrall, “Temper our optimism: the message from the G20 Leaders’ Summit in Osaka”, Lowy Interpreter: http://m.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/temper-our-optimism-message-g20-leaders-summit-osaka
Hugh White, “How to Defend Australia”, book review by Sam Roggeveen in the Lowy Interpreter: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/book-review-hugh-white-s-how-defend-australia
Arthur C. Brooks, “Your Professional Decline Is Coming (Much) Sooner Than You Think”, The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/07/work-peak-professional-decline/590650/
Monday Jun 24, 2019
Monday Jun 24, 2019
Allan and Darren commence this episode by discussing the enormous protests in Hong Kong against a proposed extradition law. How has Australia viewed Hong Kong’s trajectory prior to and following its handover to the PRC in 1997, and up to the present? Is it surprising that the Hong Kong government backed down, and what do these events tell us about Hong Kong’s future? Do other governments, including Australia’s, have any capacity to shape what will happen?
The Shangri-La dialogue is next on the agenda. Allan begins by explaining what it is and why it is relevant to watchers of Australian foreign policy. Then, the major theme of this year’s dialogue--growing anxiety at US-China competition--is covered through the lens of the opening address by the host, Singaporean Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong. To what extent do Lee’s remarks accurately diagnose the problem, and reflect the mood of the region?
Finally, as tensions escalate between the United States and Iran, Darren asks Allan for an Australian perspective, and they both wonder whether the mercurial Trump needs a traditional “off-ramp” to get the United States out of this crisis.
As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj
Our thanks go to AIIA intern Charlie Henshall for his help with audio editing, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.
Relevant links
Tyler Cowen. “What Hong Kong’s Freedom Means to the World”, Bloomberg: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-12/hong-kong-protests-show-the-limits-of-economic-freedom
Marise Payne, “Statement on protests in Hong Kong”: https://foreignminister.gov.au/releases/Pages/2019/mp_mr_190612a.aspx
Milia Hau, “Britain failed Hong Kong”, Foreign Policy: https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/06/12/britain-failed-hong-kong/
Lee Hsien Loong’s opening address to the 2019 Shangri-La Dialogue: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/lee-hsien-loong-speech-2019-shangri-la-dialogue-11585954
Florence Parly, “Speech at the Shangri-La Dialogue”: https://in.ambafrance.org/French-Defence-Minister-Florence-Parly-s-speech-at-the-Shangri-La-Dialogue
Friday Jun 07, 2019
Friday Jun 07, 2019
We are very excited to bring you a special interview this episode with Rebecca Skinner, Associate Secretary of Australia’s Department of Defence, and therefore one of the most senior women working on Australia’s national security. It is a wide-ranging conversation that covers topics including the nature of the Associate Secretary role, civil-military relationships inside the department, the never-ending question of reform, gender issues, and contrasts between private and public sector organisations. Allan and Darren also pose big picture questions on the disrupted strategic environment and how to better integrate Australia’s national security community. On the lighter side, the $400 ash tray from the TV show “The West Wing” and (perhaps) its Australian equivalent – a flute – also come up.
As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj
Our thanks go to AIIA intern Charlie Henshall for his help with audio editing, Rory Stenning for composing our theme music, and Martyn Pearce for technical assistance in setting up this episode.
Relevant links
Rebecca Skinner’s biography: http://defence.gov.au/leaders/MsRebeccaSkinner.asp
The West Wing: “Four hundred dollar ashtray”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R9kH_HOUXM
Thursday May 30, 2019
Thursday May 30, 2019
It’s been a busy few weeks in Australia and the world, and in a full episode Allan and Darren begin with the restrictions announced by the Trump Administration on the sale of technology to Huawei, and what this means for US-China competition. They pivot closer to home to Papua New Guinea and the resignation of its Prime Minister. Next, they reflect upon four election results: Australia, India, Indonesia and the European Union, and then turn to the announcement of two new Australian Ambassadors to the United States and the United Nations, both ex-politicians. Finally, Allan remembers Prime Minister Bob Hawke.
As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj
Our thanks go to Charlie Henshall for his help with audio editing, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.
Relevant links
Darren Lim and Victor Ferguson, “Huawei and the decoupling dilemma”: https://www.lowyinterpreter.org/the-interpreter/huawei-and-decoupling-dilemma
Angus Grigg, Lisa Murray and Jonathan Shaprio, “Revealed: PNG PM Peter O’Neill’s ‘very bad’ Oil Search deal”: https://www.afr.com/news/policy/foreign-affairs/revealed-png-pm-peter-o-neill-s-very-bad-oil-search-deal-20190523-p51qhk
BBC Brexitcast podcast episode, “From Tusk ‘til Dawn”: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07bf8pv
Allan Gyngell, “Bob Hawke and Australian foreign policy”: https://www.lowyinterpreter.org/the-interpreter/bob-hawke-and-australian-foreign-policy
Review of The National album, “I am easy to find”: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/may/17/the-national-i-am-easy-to-find-review
Thaddeus t. grugq, “A kompromat mystery”: https://medium.com/@thegrugq/a-kompromat-mystery-29caa1fd94a2 ;
“Kompromat of solace: Timeline”: https://medium.com/@thegrugq/kompromat-of-solace-timeline-fbdd33c4a75c ;
“Kompromat of solace: Operations”: https://medium.com/@thegrugq/kompromat-of-solace-operations-408d1e1480b6
Wednesday May 15, 2019
Wednesday May 15, 2019
With the Australian federal election happening on Saturday 18 May, in this episode Allan and Darren follow the practice of all government departments in preparing an “incoming government brief”: a document presented to the new (or returning) minister for each department, for the purpose of providing a descriptive overview of what the department does, and highlighting the most important issues facing that particular portfolio as the new term commences.
Allan and Darren’s brief contains three “chapters”. Chapter 1 is on the structure of national security and foreign policy making, and the discussion turns on the best way of coordinating decision-making given the complex challenges faced in Australia’s international relations. Chapter 2 is on Donald Trump, where Allan and Darren largely agree on the impact of the Trump presidency on the world so far, but diverge slightly in their resulting degree of pessimism. Chapter 3 is on China, where the disagreement is more on the quality of Australia’s policy response to this most difficult set of policy dilemmas. Along the way, the two discuss recent events relating to Iran, the White House’s contrasting approaches to diplomacy, the second Belt and Road Forum and the US-China trade war.
As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj
Our thanks go to AIIA intern Charlie Henshall for his help with audio editing, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.
Relevant links
“Morrison says 'no difference' with Bishop on China relationship”, SBS News: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/morrison-says-no-difference-with-bishop-on-china-relationship
Tyler Cowen, “How real news is worse than fake news”, Bloomberg: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-09-05/how-real-news-is-worse-than-fake-news
Adam Tooze, “Is this the end of the American century”, London Review of Books: https://www.lrb.co.uk/v41/n07/adam-tooze/is-this-the-end-of-the-american-century
Tanner Greer, “The utterly dysfunctional Belt and Road”, Scholar’s Stage Blog: http://scholars-stage.blogspot.com/2019/05/the-utterly-dysfunctional-belt-and-road.html
Andrew Batson, “The Belt and Road is about domestic interest groups not development”: https://andrewbatson.com/2019/05/02/the-belt-and-road-is-about-domestic-interest-groups-not-development/
Nadege Rolland, “Beijing’s response to the Belt and Road Initiative’s ‘pushback’, Asian Affairs (currently free to access): https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03068374.2019.1602385?scroll=top&needAccess=true&
Sunday May 05, 2019
Sunday May 05, 2019
In the aftermath of the terrorist attacks in Sri Lanka on Easter Sunday, Allan and Darren focus this episode on understanding and responding to the challenges posed by these types of attacks. How has Sri Lanka typically been viewed through the lens of Australian foreign policy, and do these attacks change that? How should we understand these attacks through the lens of the broader challenge of Islamic extremism and what policy responses are available? What role do DFAT and other security agencies play? And do these attacks cast the issue of foreign fighters—with which Australia has been grappling in recent years—in a different light? Allan concludes the episode with some thoughts why foreign policy challenges tend to be downplayed or ignored during Australian election seasons.
As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj
Our thanks go to AIIA intern Charlie Henshall for his help both with research and audio editing, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.
Relevant links
Lydia Khalil, “Islamic State's three tactics that will bring terror closer to home”: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-27/is-3-tactics-that-will-bring-terror-closer-to-home/11046346
Hilary McGeachy, “US-China technology competition: Impacting a rules-based order”: https://www.ussc.edu.au/analysis/us-china-technology-competition-impacting-a-rules-based-order
Sue Halpern, “The terrifying potential of the 5G network”: https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-communications/the-terrifying-potential-of-the-5g-network
David French, “The great battle of Winterfell”: https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/the-great-battle-of-winterfell/
Claire Cain Miller (NYT Upshot), “Women Did Everything Right. Then Work Got ‘Greedy’”: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/26/upshot/women-long-hours-greedy-professions.html
Friday Apr 19, 2019
Friday Apr 19, 2019
On this week’s episode, Allan and Darren begin on the topic of geoeconomics, which is a core focus of Darren’s research. Allan first offers his practitioner’s perspective on the definition and context of the term, with Darren following with his academic view. Both recognise that nation-states have long been practicing geoeconomic activities, but that the increasing prominence of the term very much reflects the particular challenges of the present moment. A recent Wall Street Journal story on Myanmar’s successful renegotiation of infrastructure contracts with Chinese financiers becomes the focal point of a discussion of the strategic consequences of economic activity, which in turn sees Allan and Darren debate whether the Sri Lankan port of Hambantota and the Australian port of Darwin indeed harbour such strategic significance as to warrant the geoeconomic frame. The discussion rounds out with Darren asking Allan for his advice on how future Australian governments can integrate geoeconomic approaches into future policy.
Finally, the very high-profile case of Julian Assange, as well as two other members of the Australian community (Hakeem al-Araibi and Yang Hengjun) shine a spotlight on the consular work of Australian diplomats. What is the decision-making calculus the government, and consular officials on the ground, take when deciding whether and how to make representations on behalf of Australians who somehow fall afoul of local authorities while abroad?
As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj
Our thanks go to AIIA intern Charlie Henshall for his help both with research and audio editing, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.
Relevant links
Wall Street Journal: “U.S. Goes on the Offensive Against China’s Empire-Building Funding Plan” : https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-goes-on-the-offensive-against-chinas-empire-building-megaplan-11554809402
Robert Kagan, “The strongmen strike back”: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2019/03/14/feature/the-strongmen-strike-back/?utm_term=.38b19f87a8fa
theringer.com “Talk the thrones” (Season 8, Ep 1 recap): https://www.theringer.com/game-of-thrones/2019/4/14/18308095/talk-the-thrones-game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-1
Vox.com “Who will win Game of Thrones, explained by political science”: https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/15/18311189/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-1-recap-war
Saturday Apr 06, 2019
Saturday Apr 06, 2019
We delayed discussing Brexit until after the 29 March 2019 “deadline”, but that day came and went with no further clarity on what will happen, and the show must go on! Allan and Darren discuss this incredibly complex issue along multiple dimensions. They begin with a contextual analysis of the European Union, with Allan offering a view through the lens of Australian foreign policy, while Darren provides an academic perspective on logic of the EU as an international institution. Allan evaluates David Cameron’s decision to call the Brexit referendum in the manner that he did (contrasting it with John Howard’s referendum on an Australian republic) while Darren tries to understand the arguments for Brexit, from reclaiming sovereignty and control to expressing frustration with the modern world. The Northern Ireland issue is covered, and Allan concludes by summarising the entire mess from an Australian perspective.
The two then discuss the recent announcement of $44m in funding for the new National Foundation for Australia-China Relations, to replace the Australia-China Council, and what contribution these organisations make towards building bilateral relations. Finally, with a new Australian Ambassador to China announced, Darren asks Allan to describe what must be the hardest job in all of DFAT!
As always, we invite our listeners to email us at this address: australia.world.pod@gmail.com We welcome feedback, requests and suggestions. You can also contact Darren on twitter @limdarrenj
Our thanks go to AIIA intern Charlie Henshall for his help both with research and audio editing, and Rory Stenning for composing our theme music.
Relevant links
Brexit: The Uncivil War (Trailer): https://www.channel4.com/programmes/brexit-the-uncivil-war
The Brexit Storm (BBC): https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0003wxb
“Strengthening the Future of the Australia-China Relationship”, Australian Foreign Minister's Media Release: https://foreignminister.gov.au/releases/Pages/2019/mp_mr_190329a.aspx?w=E6pq%2FUhzOs%2BE7V9FFYi1xQ%3D%3D